S04E28 – American History X Review (Part 2)

In this second part of . Gavin and B. Black review the 1998 film American History X. Starring Edward Norton and Edward Furlong.

American History X is a 1998 American crime drama film directed by Tony Kaye and written by David McKenna. The film stars Edward Norton and Edward Furlong, as two brothers from Los Angeles who are involved in the white supremacist and neo- movements. The older brother (Norton) serves three years in prison for voluntary manslaughter, and during this time, he is rehabilitated, and then tries to prevent his brother from going down the same path. The supporting cast includes Fairuza Balk, Stacy Keach, Elliott Gould, Avery Brooks, Ethan Suplee and Beverly D’Angelo.

Your Hosts:

  Gavin StephensGAVIN STEPHENS


  B. Black


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Gavin 0:00
Hey, thanks Patreon listeners for listening and staying tuned and supporting us on our journey on on colonise. Without further ado, I don’t want to take any more of your time. Like I said earlier in the first part of this episode, we’re changing the format on the Patreon. It’s going to be an after party show. That’s what we’re calling it. I came up with that. So if you hate it, blame me Don’t blame me. But anyway, here we go. the after party. I mean, part two of American History X review, enjoy.

B Black 0:30
Alright, now there’s a Okay, we’re at the halfway point here on the CBC. So I’m going to try to rush in here. But Derek starts to have a search to reminisce how his brother ended up in jail. Yeah, and then so they go back to the first scene of the movie that was in black and white of the three black dudes. I’m robbing his car. Yeah, we established that these three black dudes were the same. It was it was

Gavin 0:58
on the same day as the basketball game. It was on the same day as the dinner

B Black 1:01
and the dinner

Gavin 1:03
Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:04
Okay. Oh it was

Gavin 1:06
yeah because the girlfriend staying over

B Black 1:09
yeah you’re right okay I forgot to mention the girlfriend was at that table Oh, come on, get it together be alright, so uh so same black dudes from the from the basketball games and trying to rob his car so they established that okay there’s like revenge but you know whatever kids being kids right Rob his car and then you know he shoots the three black dudes Yeah, and like I said the cutaway to the black guy looking like something’s about to happen to him well that shit that happened to him well the the infamous Kurt Kurt stomp scene yeah yeah so it’s hard to watch right but yet there does occur some scene in the curb and oh my god, bro. Yes

Gavin 1:52
man. Police are taking their sweet ass time getting

B Black 1:56
because get the the arrest of and

Gavin 1:59
imagine Imagine you live like the perfect example of like the you live in a world where fucking dudes making a person by the curb are gonna stomp on the back of his neck and they don’t shoot them

B Black 2:12
they don’t matter i mean come on you shot a black kid Exactly.

Gavin 2:18
gun in his hand to black people dead on the curb and they arrest him

B Black 2:24
yeah yeah the arrest of

Gavin 2:26
peacefully you know show they don’t shoot oh yeah that’s this is my problem with the movie is like that it doesn’t deal with that.

B Black 2:34
But that but that’s a reality dude. I mean, I mean how many how many of these skinheads have like this dude got three years

Gavin 2:41
ago I mean let’s get let’s go see my scene. We’ll get to that Yeah, okay,

B Black 2:44
so now I’m gonna cuz they in the movie they jump between the present in the past so I’m gonna I’m gonna stick to the past and then get to the present in the past they show him him spending his three years in prison right so I’m gonna call I’m calling this the presidency. Right? And I think This is Gavin denies favorite scene. I don’t know if that’s true, but whatever, whatever. Alright, so Derek says in jail, you know, and He’s, uh, he established, you know, he’s by himself and he established that he’s, he’s by himself. He’s alone and he’s scared. Right. And so he’s looking for some homies. When he gets to the yard, he noticed that there’s a bunch of aramean nation in brotherhood right there, right? Yeah, he tells himself Fuck that. I’m gonna join these motherfucking without checking their website. Yeah.

Yeah. And so he established with the, he doesn’t apply, but you know, they make some kind of connection. Say I’m one of us. And he joins the Aryan Brotherhood. And while after this happens, then it cut to Derrick ending up with a job in prison. Yeah, he’s folding laundry folding laundry, and guess who’s his coworker is Tory Guy torque guy Tory Joe Tory. Okay, no guy Tory guy. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, I was gonna see Torrio oh my god he be pay attention. All right. A guy Tory. Yeah, um, and I guess he’s like his supervisor or some shit, but he’s

Unknown Speaker 4:14
just not enough supervise. They just working together.

B Black 4:17
They’re just working, but he’s established. Okay, this is how things get done. Yeah, he’s got it. He is another

Gavin 4:21
thing. He’s got a good job in prison.

B Black 4:23
He’s got a good yeah, that’s another thing. Yeah, that’s that’s kinda interesting, guys. I got some kind of connections, folding laundry folding laundry. And you can tell that you know, I got to work with this. Just this porch monkey. Don’t use that word, but the look on his face is like fuck yeah, I wish you’d Shut up. And what is this? Derek has here. Oh, Oops, wrong. scene. Sorry. Okay, back in prison. All right.

Gavin 4:48
So yeah, so guys always trying to like, like, break him down, like trying to get to know him this whole time.

B Black 4:54
You think? I think it’s like, Yo, I know you’re one of them Nazi motherfuckers but you know, but we got a job to do. So let’s just You know, do this shit and then get back to politics after this job like that. You know man it’s like if you’re working on a

Gavin 5:06
you know he keeps trying to talk to him like dude like he keeps trying to like break him crack them

B Black 5:11
alright all right all right yeah yes yes magical me Sorry guy Tory all right that’s gonna suck if you here’s this gotta share stage with him

Gavin 5:22
this whole the prison thing was very cringe worthy for me

B Black 5:25
oh yeah okay yeah so um what is this okay so all right the there ends up having a misunderstanding with the Aryan Brotherhood like I said he didn’t check their website turns out the Arab brotherhood they hate the blacks they hate the Mexicans but they’re cool and whoever but they’re cool with doing business with them

Unknown Speaker 5:46
yeah, they buy drugs and they sell drugs like that you know the

Gavin 5:50
prison politics right and and and Edward Norton’s very principled his characters a principle that’s white Yeah.

B Black 5:58
Yeah. And and you know, and whites The brothers are like, Yo, dude, I mean, we’re racist, but what the fuck? We’re trying to make money and he’s

Gavin 6:05
like, yeah, here’s the real world, my friend. Yeah, you’re being like he’s you’re being the overzealous guy and you’re getting on our nerves. Yeah, like that. They’re all right. So I’m the guy Tory’s showing that black people are human, but they are human. And the are like, are showing that. Yeah, so. So this naive white boy who had no idea that fucking

B Black 6:29
so he breaks away from them. Yeah, right. And then I forget what

Gavin 6:34
he didn’t know he starts he starts complaining about them and they’re like, you know what, you need to shut the fuck up. People getting sick of your fucking stuff. And then eventually he confronts them and then the dude like in the yard like does like Hey, hey, he walks away when he sees him dealing drugs. Yeah, and then he’s like hey, and he gives them Nazi slit and he doesn’t slip back and they’re like, all right, we see you discuss in front of everybody. It buffer everyone in front of everybody.

B Black 7:00
Exactly and you know and then oh

Gavin 7:02
yeah so then he’s in the shower

B Black 7:04
oh my god but um

Gavin 7:07
and they raised him in the shower

B Black 7:08
beat the shit out of and a

Gavin 7:10
rape him like the yeah I don’t know if that’s cliched in prison but it’s cliched in the . Yes they they rape him and then he then so in there in the lunchroom and he refuses no no he still okay sorry. Yeah he gets raped and then go ahead.

B Black 7:25
No you remember lunchroom because the next thing I remember well it’s not like oh yeah, no after you get for it, he gets he gets he gets called it he called him he’s in the infirmary. Yeah, right. And you can tell he’s a broken person at this point, right? Yeah. Like if I gave him a flyer sleeping on his stomach

Unknown Speaker 7:40
the whole fucking time.

B Black 7:42
Oh my god. Yeah, he’s broken. He’s a liar. Yeah. To Scientology. He joined my cult, you know?

Gavin 7:49
And yeah, and then he comes in and makes him want to write up it makes him write a paper about his rape in the shower.

B Black 7:57

Gavin 8:00
I want you to call this as as American History X

Unknown Speaker 8:06
our American History X

Unknown Speaker 8:10
that’s we’re gonna call it we’re gonna establish

B Black 8:12
when you see this scene you feel bad for

Gavin 8:17
when they do scenes like this they really play it up like it’s a very like, okay, yeah,

B Black 8:22
yeah. And then the only on the last recording I use the word the only person to give them an olive garden. And I think the olive branch let’s see expression it gets out.

Unknown Speaker 8:33
Yeah, sorry. I’m sorry. I don’t know I’m laughing at you. It’s all good. But I wouldn’t prefer an olive garden. I would

B Black 8:41
the only human being to show them any kind of decency if you you know was this teacher Dr. Sweetie Dr. Sweeney,

Unknown Speaker 8:47
and you know another magical Negro

B Black 8:50
medical yo Derek Briggs down, but I won’t lie to you. Dr. Sweeney said something like in that got me right cuz he asked him the question. He goes yo What have you done? What have you done to make your life better? Yeah, right. That moment I call it I call it the. That’s when Derek has coming to the altar moment ah to America.

Gavin 9:16
He says that

B Black 9:17
you’re going to be that’s when he realized hey, man. Uh, okay. When I first saw this movie to me, I said, yo, that was dumb. Hey, man, these negros are not so bad.

Gavin 9:28
Yeah, but that was totally that moment.

B Black 9:30

Gavin 9:32
well, we’ll go on with the right. Oh, you know what, I don’t even think it was these Negroes are so bad. I think it’s all self preservation. He’s like, I gotta get out of prison. And then he’s, Oh, we got to do some for me. Right? is that if that happens, then?

B Black 9:44
No, no, we’re still on Dr. Sweeney. And then and then I said the Oh, there’s another part. I guess Derek is done with the white supremacy shit. Um, and then he doesn’t hang out with the with the

Gavin 9:57
but doesn’t he say doesn’t he asked him to like Cuz he isn’t there. He’s like, I want to get out here and he’s like, well, you got to do something for me. It doesn’t just can’t just give it like this way. Like, yeah, in the hospital, but he’s like, I gotta get he’s crying and he’s like, I gotta get out of here. And he’s like, well, you gotta do something for me.

B Black 10:15
established. Yeah,

Gavin 10:17
yeah, he said that in prison. You can’t. I can’t. I can’t just get like, I can get you out, but I’m not gonna basically. Oh, you gotta Yeah, you gotta give up the white supremacy lifestyle.

B Black 10:27
I think I need you to be

Gavin 10:29
okay. And I need you to be a snitch. Yeah, he does that laughter as well. But he also is like, you got to do something for me. Isn’t it’s not gonna be easy. You gotta do something for me. Right.

B Black 10:38
So Derek has dialogue with the ariens

Gavin 10:41
Yeah, he does them in the lunchroom.

B Black 10:44
And he’s like a lone wolf in prison. Right. His black coworker guy Tory’s. What’s the movie again? I forget.

Unknown Speaker 10:52
I forget what it is magical Negro.

Unknown Speaker 10:55

B Black 10:57
He sees this you go bro. You can’t be a bro. I’m paraphrasing, right but you can’t be you can’t be dissing your base like that. Yeah, I mean, your crew. The brothers want to kill you. Yeah. I mean, you’re walking in a rush like that. All kinds of things. He’s disappointed in him. It’s like fuck you’re on your own. You’re fuck man. And it bothers me like that. Then the next character be the tough guy that he is a Yo, Yo, dude, tell me something. I don’t know. Whatever is gonna happen is gonna happen. It is what it is. Yeah. And then. And then the scene ends. That’s the scene but the prison scene ends

Gavin 11:35
with Derek is left alone. No one left alone. And then he leaves and he comes up to guy Tory who’s happens to be working in the garden. Even though it’s not his job. He happens to be working in the garden at the time.

B Black 11:49
He’s a volunteer man. He’s

Gavin 11:50
found a weird that they’re like they’re walking them out and he’s like, he’s a volunteer. Oh, can I work in the garden, the prison garden

B Black 11:58
especially especially when They’re at least

Unknown Speaker 12:00
prisons. This place is so drab. This place is so drab it needs to grow ours but

B Black 12:07
we forgot to establish because we were talking about that what do you realize these monkeys are not so bad before he leaves prison, one of the discussion that Derek has with a guy Toro is how did he end up in jail? Yeah long story short he finds out that this new guy Tory is in jail for longer term for trying to steal a television he

Gavin 12:31
stole a TV and then ran decided donut store came out and was it was trying to buy cops and drop the TV by accident on

B Black 12:39
it on a cost foot but the cop registered that shit no, they threw that TV at me. Yeah. And and so he’s in jail for what’s the word assaulting an officer? Yeah. And like that. But the scene where where? Ed Norton’s characters like come on, bro. There’s no way you’re in jail. He like he doesn’t believe him. What do you mean? I’m in jail? for killing three guys for two guys

Gavin 13:01
for three years yeah

B Black 13:02
for a team Yeah, for you’re in jail longer than me for what? Yeah, if he doesn’t believe in that face on guy the stupid

Unknown Speaker 13:12
facial expression on guy Tory’s. Uh, we jumped ahead in this in your scene by scene. Um, we jump way ahead we did the party scene was before this.

B Black 13:23
All right, so we’re gonna do this party scene after Yeah, no, because you

Gavin 13:27
know why it’s important to do the party scene first because he’s telling this story, too as well for long.

B Black 13:33
Yeah, like I’m trying to fast forward this cuz I’m like, I was gonna I was gonna say in the party scene. door I got it. I wrote it in a way cuz Yes. Later he ends up telling his his brother What happened to him in prison? Yeah, that ends up changing his brother But okay, but I only brought up the scene about the guy Tory explained how he’s in jail for a long time. Because I think that’s the part where he realizes that Wow, okay, okay, this racism the keys these black guys have differently than me or they have the same they have problems to some shit like that. Do you really

Gavin 14:07
think he realized that in prison?

B Black 14:11
You’re talking to the guy who allowed himself to believe that the cops at the beginning of the movie were like, oh shit racism is bad. Yeah kusuma

Unknown Speaker 14:20
I am talking to that guy.

B Black 14:21
Let me have a Hollywood moment.

Gavin 14:23
An apple for every teacher. Yeah, he’s no i don’t i think it’s like, I think he knows it’s bad. And I think it but i don’t i really like the fact that he’s going through prison the whole fucking time. And he’s like, first of all, I can’t believe they’re dealing drugs with other races. And then And then secondly, to be like, to be shocked at that story. I mean, like, it sounds like a typical white dude to be like, What the fuck, that’s dumb. But it’s also like, no, that’s what happened. And I don’t think he’s I don’t think he’s at a state. I think You’d be the guy that like, would be like, oh, wow, okay, maybe that is racism. But that happened to you. I think like the best you’re gonna get with this guy based on the director of this movie based on his politics in this movie is racism is an individual thing. Like it’s what you and I do to each other. It’s not systemic.

Unknown Speaker 15:24
Hmm, okay, okay. Okay. Like even

Gavin 15:26
the point where he’s like, he says, Joe, Joe, Joe torian that the first time they meet, he’s like, you’re the nigger in here. Like you can you can, you can be all whatever, but you’re the minority. Even that I don’t think it like. I don’t think I don’t think I mean, the. They’re making the point of it. But they’re not there’s no, maybe maybe it’s not their job to say it but I don’t think there’s no connection to the idea of like, oh, there’s a bigger there’s a bigger world outside of individual races. Okay, there’s deeper racism deeper. Okay,

B Black 16:03
I just want to establish the first time I saw this movie, I thought, Okay, um, and Norton’s character stopped being racist because he got raped and the only two people to be nice to it were black people. I hated that shit. I hated that shit.

Gavin 16:18
That’s what I know. I think that’s I think that’s what the directors going for. And I’m and I’m saying

B Black 16:24
finding I mean part of all that sure have influenced the fact that he took the time to learn shit like oh wow, I’m in jail for a shorter period of time like he’s being punished harshly and take the time to learn that

Gavin 16:39
that’s just shit that happened to fall into his lap

B Black 16:44
to me I noticed that I picked up on this you know

Gavin 16:47
did the talk that you know remind me of it remind me of three billboards. Out of ebbing when we did the review of that it was it was nominated for an Oscar or might have won. Were the two the main characters like this racist, horrible person, and then he gets caught in a fire and then he becomes the hero of the movie. Yeah, yeah. It’s like that. It’s like there’s there’s no there was no real growth on Edward Norton. Other than he stopped hanging out with neo nazis because he got raped.

B Black 17:17
Yo, I think the for me is I can tell you when I went from seen white people as not human to human beings and when I say not human i mean you know, I still believed in the whole white supremacy shit the whole whatever right but I saw like these white premise Okay, yeah I still think you know I still bought into the you know hey, like subconsciously without acknowledging it right? Yeah. White Jesus. Yeah, okay. I can’t I mean, yeah, but they weren’t human like they were like, like these these these monsters. You know, to be like monsters. You know, when I think about the whole path like that. Oh,

Unknown Speaker 18:03
you’re angry. Exactly. Yeah.

B Black 18:04
And then and then I transition to Oh, they’re human beings who just happen to have a different experience. How long did it take you to?

Gavin 18:12
What what I shouldn’t say how long What was it like, why did you transition?

B Black 18:17
That’s gross. That’s gross.

Gavin 18:20
Yeah, exactly. That’s exactly it. There is no growth on Edward Norton in this movie other than he got raped. Right. And he hung out with a black guy who happened he happened to be in the right place where it happened to have a black guy happened to tell him some information that things are unfair. And it’s not unfair for black people. It’s unfair for that black guy

B Black 18:41
for that. Yeah,

Gavin 18:42
it’s like ever see that? Daryl Daryl Dixon do that guy that goes gets a clan clan hoods. He hangs out with the clan he’s a black guy that hangs out with the clan even see that guy?

B Black 18:53
Oh though. It’s really nice to them. Yeah, that

Gavin 18:56
guy where the clans like? Yeah, he’s they can see him. As an individual black guy who’s nice, it’s like that it’s like I can see I can I can look past my hate at this one black I still think black people should pass my hate. It’s kind of like the same way with with this character. It’s like, oh, that should happen to you. Uh huh. But there’s no tying everything to it. When they talk about racism in this movie, even though I do believe that they’re they’re doing like some sort of hyper masculinity point of view in when they do the like Edward furlongs perspective on this brother. I do think that this is the problem with the messaging in the movie was great in terms of racism is that it doesn’t understand it that well. So it doesn’t know how to connect . Racism is like even with a cop scene, what it’s like racism systemically is repeatedly shown in this movie. As not a thing. Racism is just bad people doing badly, like even them talking about their ideas. Racism it’s it’s only neo nazis it’s only me Yeah, it’s neo nazis who are racist and then there’s vague like dropping the TV is like a vague and then like oh it’s like like if you’re if you understand why black people why There’s more black people in prison you understand the movie but it’s like there’s only vagueness of systemic racism in that but it just most of it is like, oh there are bad people who do racism most of that’s the politics I get from it bad people do racism it’s an individual thing and not a systemic thing.

B Black 20:37
Okay, this is the part where I agree you said that I probably putting more things into this movie that then then then then the writer intended, but I just connected to the time where I went from point A to point B, and I just took it for granted. Okay. There’s another thing where we get to the to the to the skinhead party. Yeah. That may be realized that, okay, where he caught on that Yo, he got played like that, you know that he got

Gavin 21:06
played by his own people. I don’t think like, to me, that’s a journey. That’s a journey of like, consequences happen to them but not like, oh, racism is systemic. It’s not he didn’t learn anything about racism just that he learned that there’s some nice black people out there. And that like, like in think about the character it’s coming from like he’s he’s he’s a neo nazi like it’s the ultimate of racism and then think about like like just like you know the white dude online that it’s like clueless about race and it’s just like hey, you know the centrist thing about the centrist like how how they don’t see themselves as racist or part of white supremacy but when you talk to them, you’re like, oh, here comes that shit again. Right like there’s so dipped in white supremacy. But they don’t see it right? Because they they’re not they’re not Nazis, right?

B Black 22:06
I’m not okay, I’m not following.

Gavin 22:08
What I’m saying is like, it’s the movie deals with racism in the extreme and it doesn’t deal with racism like everyday like, like it like systemic racism. I’m not saying it should, but when but it bumps up against it and it’s like, that’s where the politics go to shit. So like, when he’s not racist anymore, it’s like, well, I don’t know how he didn’t become racist.

Unknown Speaker 22:32
Or you know what?

Gavin 22:34
I just know he got raped and he hasn’t won rates anymore.

B Black 22:37
Okay, you know what, okay, maybe maybe we’re making him stronger because we get to the end because we’re making assumptions that hey, you know, he’s not racist,

Gavin 22:45
or, I mean, that’s what I’m saying. Yeah, I see what you’re saying, Okay, he’s just cool with these. Oh, he just doesn’t. He was cool with him. He sees the flaws and white supremacy and not even white supremacy, but he sees the flaws in the white supremacy that he hangs out with. Yes, okay, okay. Okay, I see the flaws and people that he used to be around.

B Black 23:05
Okay. All right. Um,

Gavin 23:08
it becomes an individual racism story, like racism on an individual level, you know, I mean, like, like, Oh, it’s you know, you know when white white people go black people can be racist to it’s like that kind of a story. It’s told by that kind of a person.

B Black 23:24
I’m not disagreeing I’m not disagreeing okay? Uh, the okay. I I’m not disagreeing Yeah. And hold that for the for the

Gavin 23:31
Yeah, let’s keep moving. Sorry. So, um,

B Black 23:35
we agreed that the last scene in prison is cringy because Derrick talks to guy Tori’s character says, Hey, I’m Nolan. fuck with me while I was in prison. Yeah, especially the black guys. I get the feeling you had something to do with it, you know? We took that exam. Then they shake hands or give pounds or whatever it is, and he walks away and then guy Tories Yo go easy on the wish he hadn’t said that. He’s young the Black Power sign and I come on

Gavin 24:09
and no and no black prisoner punched him in the chest. Like just like I’m sorry dude, you need this

B Black 24:16
bro. I’m willing to believe you know that’d be right and if I’m wrong but I really do believe white people had Oh, that was that

Gavin 24:25
that was a whole thing the same crowd that was like fucking applauding what’s his name teaching with Green Book when they’re teaching man eat chicken? Yeah that fucking crap.

Unknown Speaker 24:37
CC see we are we do deserve redemption.

Gavin 24:44
We are good. It’s like it’s it’s it’s um, James Baldwin talking about Cindy points a jumper from the train. and black. We were like, why are you jumping from the train? Get back on the train.

Unknown Speaker 24:56
Remember Cindy?

B Black 24:56
Oh, right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Gavin 24:58
Alex James Baldwin talking about James

B Black 25:01
Baldwin. Oh my

Gavin 25:02
God, we come on time jumping from the agenda, dude. Just any point jumping it’s this. It’s this is my problem with this movie. It’s this is an A new trope. Yeah this is old as fucking I mean it’s old as dirt

B Black 25:14
Alright, so yes you’re making me realize rewatching it I ignored that part of the see. I guess I’m thinking of everyone who told me because remember like I said first time I hated the movie yeah I’m surrounded by all these people who told me they loved the movie I’m like what do we watch the same shit? So I really watched it looking for things to like and then I realized yeah and then I ignored the the tropes the I didn’t like the magical Negro part but yeah,

Gavin 25:37
you know what, you convince me on some shit but we’ll get to the end of it and I’ll tell you what I what I think after. Okay,

B Black 25:43
so now we jumped to the skinhead party that at the beginning of the I was mentioning that he was being invited to Yeah, it was the welcome home Derek party. Yes, brought on by the skinhead buddies like that. But Derek is going there with the intention of breaking up with his with his boys. I’m like you Yeah, I’m trying to let you know that you’re I’m done with you. I’m done with this shit like that. You know, man and I’m trying to break up with this boy. And I love this conversation that he has with Cameron.

Unknown Speaker 26:11
right cuz steak sandwich character Yeah.

B Black 26:13
That he’s trying to put his client or he’s got his claws into his little brother’s um, what’s the expression? He’s got his client to him? Yeah, it’s like you know it’s uh, you know I want you to be you. I want you to be like your your older brother. Yeah, like that. Ed Norton sees this, he says tells his brother to leave. Yeah, there’s a blonde that wants to bang you outside. Yeah, finds an excuse to get to leave the room because you need to have a real conversation with Cameron. Bro. I love Kissel, now him and Cameron You know, it starts us moving in ends with an argument about how Yo, you ain’t shit Cameron, I lost three years of my life because of your stupid movement. And I learned that you were a snitch back in jail. Yeah, you know, but I’m not gonna tell these people that I’m just letting you know that I’m done with yours.

Gavin 26:54
You’re not the man. I felt like everyone isn’t living up to the the idea of them. Man that a man is yes

B Black 27:01
yeah to me this Okay, first time I watched the movie The skinheads were the bad guy. Yeah. Second time, Cameron like, like it was emotional for me that his character like I hated him like he’s the one recruiting the kids he’s doing getting them to to do shit like okay the kids are responsible for their actions don’t don’t get me wrong like that right but I see he’s the like I said he’s the same dude in Islam he’s the guy who’s convincing kids to radical Islam yeah to blow themself up but yeah like that you know while he’s making money and selling DVDs you’re not scared of those people.

Gavin 27:37
Dudes on top yet no yes, you’re scared of talking about Tariq Nasheed but you’re not scared of fucking Interesting.

Unknown Speaker 27:50
Interesting choice.

B Black 27:53
Like, well, you know, every parent’s nightmares you don’t like, Hey, I’m trying to raise a good kid and then there’s some asshole out there. Wait,

Gavin 28:00
yeah, he knows how to manipulate people.

B Black 28:02
Yeah. And so it ends with him punching Cameron. Cameron in the face. He’s bleeding, which

Gavin 28:12
I completely understand. I understand like the idea of like, the path to this from, like hearing the hypocrisy of the people that you looked up to right like, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah,

B Black 28:24
yeah, yeah. Yeah. I’ve been there but you know, that’s a different episode we’ll talk about Yeah. All right. Um, so he, he kicks them because cameras talking to a lot of shit. He goes well, yo, if I can get trauma get your brother something like that. They

Gavin 28:42
can’t get you I get you.

B Black 28:47
So he leaves the room knowing he fucked up. Yeah. Oh, there’s a mansion. He does not come out there scene. I forgot to mention that his his he told his ex. Yeah, his girlfriend broke up. Trying to move this shit Why don’t you come with me? Yeah I see really like this girl goes and I’m I’m leaving once you come within the girls confused leave go where

Unknown Speaker 29:11
your God your God exact she says that literally your god

B Black 29:16
she went from your gun to a point you tell them everything you were telling me before he isn’t just another nigger, you know like all of a sudden he went from being a god to a an because he just he’s got a mind of its own. And you know cults aren’t like that they get pissed when you try to leave the movie. They don’t look stupid. Yeah, so I then Seth, who went in the room to check on Cameron sees them on the ground and comes back out with a gun pointed at Derek What the fuck did you do you remember like that then? There is still the bad boy. He’s like, No, he doesn’t cry it whatever the guns in his face. And somehow he skipped through a lot of details but he disarms them, right and then and points that I read everyone’s you know What puts everyone in the in the party? This is your backup backup. The same way he did it in a fight club.

Gavin 30:05
I’m surprised an American and American neo nazi party has only one gun.

B Black 30:11
You know? That’s a very interesting point. Yeah, that’s a very good point that some sci fi right there, but you know, so then he runs out the party. His little his little brother trails along, you know, he catches up to him. And Adam, what did you do? Remember man, disappointed his brother, y’all, you know like shit is bad. You made us all look bad. You made it like that. Yeah. And then there finally gets his little brother calm down. And he explains the story of what happened in prison. Yeah, right. Which finally gets his brother on the same page to go Wow. Okay, so what you’re saying is racism leads to rape. All right, I’m changing my ways. Racism leads to rape. Now I want to you know, I’m I feel the need to apologize. If anyone thinks I’m like, you know making fun of, or what’s the word like, making light of rape? Yeah, it’s like that but this is just

Gavin 31:09
they put in a prison See, it’s very heavy handed like it’s very heavy handed the way they did it like it’s like, look and then rape will happen to you know, it’s like it’s it’s very much like who’s that guy Aaron Darren Aronofsky like his movies with like, what’s that movie? He did the Requiem for a Dream about drugs and it’s like if you do drugs, they’ll color Armand Yes. It’s like It’s like very it’s like after school special kind of shit.

B Black 31:39
So, finding these guys return home, okay, and we’re just gonna jump through the scenes here. They return home. They pulled down the Nazi posters. Yeah, they still had on their wall, you know, because they realized that this Nazi shit ain’t for them. Um, Danny finishes his paper on on his brother and we’re Flex on how he believes that his brother got into this white supremacy shit. Right? And then they cut back to a black and white scene where there’s a dinner

Gavin 32:12
yeah family dinner with yeah cuz it sorry their lead up his brain Edwards like oh, I mean Dan Edward Furlong it’s like talks about Edward Norton. How about how Edward believes that he just became a Nazi like he just picked up but he knew a long time ago that this this was happening before so it cuts to the dinner scene to the dentist and when the father is there, who’s that he’s in his police. You know, he’s a fireman is a fire. His father’s a fireman who was shot by a black person. Well, they were shot by a black person or he was shot while putting out a fire and he died.

B Black 32:47
Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. Whatever. All right, so the firemen and it starts out with how Derek and Norton’s character is talking about how his new teacher Dr. Sweeney, yes, Avery Brooks. You know, he’s fascinating. He’s fascinated by the ship and by the way has

Gavin 33:09
a fabulous wig on. Kudos kudos to Tyler Perry’s wig company back in action fuckin it’s the worst guy there was like, like it they dressed him up like he like oh he needs to be young make him look like like saronite live with dress up someone to look young. It’s like yeah, just holding a skateboard and like

Unknown Speaker 33:34
exactly you know, I could get drugged

Unknown Speaker 33:38
is totally like Okay, here we go.

B Black 33:41
So um and i love how so he’s talking about Dr. Sweetie Yeah, and how he’s got him reading the book NATO son Yes. I shut the fuck out of me. I’m like what you making a white dude read NATO. Holy shit start with root I mean not even root I wait what’s a good introduction to racism or black people? Valley High. No.

Gavin 34:03
Sweet Valley High series.

B Black 34:04
Yo, native son is extreme man. I remember, someone convinced me to read it. And in the store What the fuck

Gavin 34:11
black artists usually extreme though, right? Like it’s, it’s it’s you know, I’m sorry

Unknown Speaker 34:19
sun isn’t it? It’s not James Baldwin isn’t it? It’s his, uh, his.

B Black 34:27
Uh, apparently these guys were rivals. No, it was uh oh my god. Richard Wright. Okay, Richard Wright. Okay. All right. Doesn’t matter. All right, so uh, and then his dad seems to be annoyed he goes, Oh, what the fuck? Can you read this shit? What is this black history month? Yeah, things like that. There’s there’s an annoyance by this thing. And so that’s our spit and shit. Like, you know, like everything you know, busy with these blacks. You know? I mean, they they got an agenda. I got to work right now I’m in a situation where they hire these two blacks. My job? Affirmative Action. Yeah, shit like that. Right? They gave that job Oh, man, I thought he was a cop dude now was firing okay? firemen, right so, so we have these. So they gave the job to these unqualified blacks. And thanks to the permanent ban,

Gavin 35:15
he said like they gave because of affirmative action. They they gave that there was a more qualified white candidate. And they gave and they gave that to the black guy and I’m like, cuz like in that in that story? Excuse me, we have to assume that the father isn’t saying Excuse me, is it telling the truth right, because there’s no other like, I can’t just assume that he’s like a racist because he hasn’t done anything racist. But he’s, he’s borderline racist right now. Like he’s like questioning. You know, he’s centrist racist, you know, I mean, like, that’s affirmative action. So there’s like he’s making a point. That’s like, kind of valid if you were sitting at the table and you were, you know, a white person who’s listening to their dad,

B Black 36:00
you white person. I said to his dad like Abigail Fisher, aka Becky with the bad grade. Yeah, I’m the chick who took it upon herself to challenge um, I’m not gonna go into details, you know, look it up became the bad grades. But the point is you’re saying he had you think he might have had a point or what

Gavin 36:23
I mean, there’s no there’s no like there’s no point in what he’s saying to be like, Oh, I yeah. And if he says something like, oh what the black guy in the white guy had the same level of expertise but I had to give it to black guy, then you’re tipping it then you’re more in the realm of racism, but when he’s saying that the white guy was more qualified, but I had to give it the black person. It’s like, is he lying? Or is this the truth and I have to go with the truth because I don’t know. I don’t know this character.

B Black 36:51
okay for me, anytime I paint you know, I hear a white guy and the word affirmative action comes up there. Well, it’s I always assumed the worst even then

Gavin 37:00
Yeah, but we’re not we’re projecting onto the movie, right? Like, Oh, yeah, yeah. And I agree with you. Like, I agree with you. I like part of me is like, Fuck Fuck you with your affirmative action ship, but I’m going to a movie and watching a movie. So I have to go with like this character up until this point, hasn’t they haven’t really talked about them. They haven’t really they talked about them, but they haven’t shown them. And as the first time we’re seeing him, he’s not known as a liar. Okay, because he’s like, what’s needed he doesn’t know much about. He’s like, and it’s written it’s like that blue collar racism that like kind of like, in this firm reaction shit, you know, come on that is, you know, I mean, it’s like that blue. But his point about affirmative action, instead of like, I would if I was doing the scene, which I’m not I would have like, this firm action shit is you know, you know, I gotta hire black. Like I wouldn’t get in. If I was gonna get into a specific story that he had to deal with affirmative action. I would make it more even then. The white guy was calling Clearly more white guy was more color qualified. more even. Yeah, okay.

B Black 38:04
I mean that I mean, that’s Yeah, and I saw you know, well, but establish that because the thing is Derek eats eats it all up like he starts reflecting Okay, me my

Gavin 38:15
father Fisher cook. It’s an it’s Yeah, it’s a masculinity. Yes.

B Black 38:19
Yes. Okay. And that’s another thing that that I missed out on. Yeah. It’s his father figure. It’s his mentor. It’s like that and then when he dies, Cameron, Kenny also, the father says like he said, What does he say he’s like, is careful with this nigger or something like that? Ah, it’s an N word.

Gavin 38:40
He does. He says the N word. He said the N word. Yeah, he says at the table and Edward Norton looks at him like what the fuck did you just say? And it was like, yeah, dad. Okay. He’s just you know what, careful what these niggers teach you something like that. But he says the N word. But for

B Black 38:59
okay. Yeah, but me but essentially that’s in establishes for Danny. I think this is where my brother picked up on this white supremacy.

Gavin 39:09
I think he’s trying to say that there was always pervasive in the house. Oh, okay. It was always there. That’s that’s the racism was always casually there. Interesting.

Unknown Speaker 39:20
Okay, but but like, but he blatantly he says, You watch these niggers

Gavin 39:26
he says that he’s trying to say his dad was his dad was a racist. Okay, and it was always there.

B Black 39:33
Those roots, those roots run deep right? Okay,

Gavin 39:36
that’s I think that’s what that scene is showing us.

B Black 39:39
Okay, and then, okay, now we’re back to the present scenes in color. Um,

Gavin 39:46
so like, we get, like, we can move it for right like, yeah, you

B Black 39:51
jumped in, like,

Gavin 39:52
you know, yeah, he he’s, he’s, he’s confronted. He’s going to he’s taking his brother to school and he’s confronting By

B Black 40:02
the first to go to a diner and he’s confronted by the by cop and the thing and they’re looking for Dr. Sweeney, and something about Yeah, man, we need you to I don’t know, do something,

Unknown Speaker 40:12
whatever. They want him to do some reading and so like that he drops his brother off at school. Right. Okay.

B Black 40:19
And then jobs by the school and then okay. And this this movie The brothers in the washroom minding his own business and the black kid from the beginning Yeah, Who? Who? You know, I will see you later whatever, select that right and stop shooting him. Yeah. Boom point blank, point blank, whatever. And Derek is. I know I guess he’s got a six cents for this shit.

Gavin 40:49
Man with fishing bullets in his brother’s head. He can talk to bullets in his brother’s head.

B Black 40:58
So he runs to this Rest of the school grabs his brother by the arm you know why baby Dan Do you know

Unknown Speaker 41:08
is telling a funeral scene

B Black 41:11
create a list brother and then it ends with a with his brother narrating in voiceover and I’m just gonna read what Wikipedia put because they said it better. In a voiceover Danny reads the final lines of his paper for Dr. Sweeney quoting the final stanza of Abraham Lincoln’s first inaugural address. I’m not going to read the quote Life is too short for us to be angry all the time. We are not enemies anyways, whatever

Unknown Speaker 41:35
it was it was Abraham Lincoln talking to you but yes, they’re exactly you

B Black 41:40
know, I googled Abraham Lincoln have black friends

Gavin 41:44
Yeah, man. How else would he get into source awards? Cuz cuz

B Black 41:52
cuz Yeah, we were talking about who is this movie made for now, ending with this Abraham Lincoln like Get it This is why I said I think this is a movie by a white person giving you an honest perspective on what it’s like to be white San Diego in this kind of environment you know racist dad racist environment and all that kind of shit but influence around them right? Um Oh shit, I blinked Oh, yeah, that’s why I felt there was a but using that Abraham Lincoln yeah cool

Gavin 42:28
that was yeah that’s what that was for white people I don’t think there’s movies about racism I think racism is a tool to tell a story about masculinity. I think this is about masculinity. It’s about toxic masculinity. It’s about all models. But I think the racism aspect of it is so shitty. But it’s it’s just kind of like a tool like it’s exactly how he used black. The director uses black people in this movie, where they’re just kind of like background or to move the plot for they’re all tropes

B Black 42:59
first Tom I hated this movie was Yeah, the movie ended making me hate the black guy at the end of the movie is our man. You go shoot a white man after his older brother just started to look at Black people as human beings now you fucked it up for the rest of us

Gavin 43:14
Yeah, I just I I think the the racism in this movie is just like it’s just it feels like a centrist talking about racism like racism is just like

B Black 43:25
talking about

Gavin 43:26
Yeah, it just racism is like a thing that happens between people. Like it’s there’s no system in it. I mean, there’s a little bit of system in it, but it’s like, yeah, my dad was racist. It’s like, no, you’re dead. Isn’t the reason why you’re racist. You live in a society that promotes racism. Like actively like when you when when when they talk about like, like political careers, like you know how they’re like, oh, immigrants are taking jobs or the blacks are horrible. It’s like, yeah, that’s not just like, that’s not just like around the way guys talking about that shit. That’s just not other kids or Even that Cameron guy that is in the news 24 seven that his political campaigns are run on that shit. Like, like Ronald Reagan had the the what was the welfare queen? beta they like this is in the system like this is the thing is like it’s it’s it’s they make it seem like it’s oh well his dad was always racist like you can go farther back then his dad motherfucker, like this shit is so fucking deep but they don’t they don’t even know how to connect the fact that he only did three years in prison that dude got extra time for dropping a TV on on cost foot and that prisons filled with black people. They can’t connect that with his dad’s as a police chief who’s racist.

Unknown Speaker 44:44
They can’t connect that shit.

B Black 44:48
I mean, okay, I’m sticking to my point of I feel like this was a do an I’ve been licked lately. I’ve been curious about it because I realized that I I actually have no idea what it’s like to be white. And a white person can pretty much tell me what it’s like to be white because most of them are pretty, most of them are confused about Oh, I’ll tell you what the we’re not racist shit like that.

Gavin 45:11
Like, to me whiteness is just like is is is in opposition to everyone else

B Black 45:18
agreed. But I’m saying this movie is probably the best conversation I’ve had with a white person about what it’s like to be and that’s what I’m trying to say. The best conversation I was able to have with a white person about what it’s like to be white.

Gavin 45:33
I don’t know if that’s I don’t know if that’s the way experience

B Black 45:36
and it was a great tip. I’m not saying

Gavin 45:39
like I don’t like I wouldn’t look at this movie and go oh, yeah, like to me. It’s like, I look at a Nazi. And I’m like, yeah, that’s a Nazi like it. That’s, it’s the extreme. It’s like, it’s like the right prison scene. You know what I mean? It’s like, like, like, to me, it would be like, yeah, it’d be like, Oh, if I took the right prison, Seeing and go, Oh, that’s prisoners life. It’s like it’s the extreme of racism like to me, I’m going back to it get out or even like a, like a what’s a or what’s a sorry to bother you movies like this? Yeah kind of helped me understand whiteness better but even get out helps me understand like what you’re talking about white people like the Get up for sure it was I’m gonna narrow down and get out was that oh yeah I am this is the shit I get through but I understand how they think it’s more pervasive it’s more subtle it’s more it’s less overt and more about like living in a system of comfort to me like the neo nazis is just like I’m not gonna knock on wood I’m not gonna interact with neo nazis too much and I understand their ideology it’s pretty the the neo nazi understands racism the not the way I do but the other Understand that it exists like I do. The one that’s more pervasive is the centrist or the liberal who thinks they’re the most the least racist person, you know. So that’s why I get out to me is it tells me more about white people. And then this, this movies like, Oh, this tells me about neo nazis.

B Black 47:20
Let me Okay, I should clarify. Okay. When I say this, I’m a white person who becomes influenced by the neo nazi movement, or doctrine and all like that,

Gavin 47:32
you know what I mean? You know, when you were talking about, like, how you related to stuff when I started, like thinking about it from a perspective of masculinity. I, I think when I look at the movie, from that perspective, this movie could be anybody. Like it could be any race. It could be anyone who goes to an extreme because they’re looking for a male identity and looking for like a figure two. It is about toxic masculinity. The I have to be a thing. And I have to channel and I have rage and I have to channel it and who like it? That’s I get that makes sense to me but I don’t know if it’s to me it’s not a race movie. Like it uses racism as a tool to tell a story about masculinity to me.

B Black 48:19
tool to use, okay, because

Gavin 48:21
I don’t it’s horrible on race. It’s terrible. It’s terrible. This is my problem is I looked at it as a race movie before and I looked at it like like when we when we first did it, and I was like, complaining about this movie. I was complaining about it. And then when going through like, in the beginning of we’re talking about in the beginning, I was saying how the glorifies thing, but then when I I kind of listened to your perspective, and then I started looking at the movie, I’m like, Oh, this is glorifying from the perspective of Edward Furlong.

Unknown Speaker 48:49
I go,

Gavin 48:50
yeah, furlongs looking at him as like, he’s is like a like a god like a mythic figure, like an action figure.

B Black 48:56
Yeah, yeah. Okay. No, I’m being To be more specific or my language, I say white to all the Danny furlongs of the world. I feel like I’ve got a perspective in Sherlock.

Gavin 49:08
Yeah, a bit, but that black kid was Danny Furlong to Edwards. The black kid that shot him that shot him. He was there for long too.

B Black 49:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he joined the gang. Right.

Gavin 49:21
This is the thing is like I think it used but on but when this is the thing, if I look at this movie through a perspective of it’s about right, this is the problem is they’re using neo nazis. And it’s not a problem, but it is like, I’m looking at it through racism because it’s neo nazis. Yeah, so the framing is using racism. So when I look at through the framing of racism, this movie’s bad with its politics. It’s bad. It’s a bad movie. But when I look at it through the framing of masculinity and toxic masculinity, I’m like, Oh, Okay, I get it. It’s a good movie. But it but that’s what I’m saying like the messaging in terms of race. It’s terrible. The messaging be good to the brothers. It’s like oh my god it’s terrible on race like he, honestly he got raped. Like I understand a journey to to change your views takes a while but like he got raped and then people left them alone but there’s no he didn’t become unraced. Yeah, he’s just self preservation. He’s just like, oh, oh shit falls apart, which I think is the beginning of changing. But I’d like to tell me that he’s not racist after all. That’s horseshit. He’s not I don’t buy that. Because it wasn’t told to me that he was. It wasn’t shown me But again, I got I can’t look at the movie. I can’t watch this movie from a perspective of this is about racism. I gotta look at from this is about toxic masculinity.

B Black 50:45
You see toxic Okay, all right. And I saw I used to I was wrong to say boys know what what black movie is their

Unknown Speaker 50:54
boys and girls kind of the same shit to

B Black 50:56
know but I mean a black kid joining us again. Oh, And they show you why he joins the gang and everything like you see I’m I can’t think of some but I remember like you know like I remember watching a documentary about the Crips and the Bloods yeah and and how they start up people like there’s a fallacy going out that they started out because of the Klan was giving them trouble now The truth is a they didn’t have any Boys and Girls Club yeah right so they got together like that and and to if you are part of a gang then you were a victim you know you got picked on so you know you yeah there’s power

Unknown Speaker 51:33
numbers that’s what they showed in the grocery store scene and the grocery store See ya rumors you feel you feel powerful eggs

B Black 51:42
Yeah, come on yo these this is my crew man. I’m part of the deal. But

Gavin 51:45
like lately, the grocery store seems perfect example of that. I have the loss of power to like the the ad they did that because they were losing control of their neighborhood. They felt

B Black 51:56
in their mind and they felt that

Gavin 51:58
immigrants are coming in and take can only control it’s a reaction to a loss of control. Yeah. Which again, toxic masculinity.

B Black 52:07
Yeah. Hey, uh, bro. We passed the two I

Gavin 52:10
know I know. Do you want to wrap it up?

B Black 52:13
wrap it up? Yeah, yeah. So overall, I enjoyed this movie. nice piece of nice piece of flick. Nice movie. I still stand with my Okay, you know what, I’m gonna give it a half a middle finger, you know, mean half because, you know, anytime you put a neo nazi in the movie, fuck them.

Gavin 52:31
I took them in them I’m gonna go with I like the movie. From a from a from a masculine like a toxic masculinity messaging from a race movie. It’s dogshit race movie, it’s dogs. It’s dogs. If you’re looking for race in this movie, if you’re looking from a racist racism perspective, don’t. You’re getting 1990s you know, you know that centrists kind of racist view but from a toxic masculinity movie. It’s actually very interesting. It’s I read thinking about it again reviewing it again. Yeah, I liked it from that perspective.

B Black 53:07
Word up, man. Here’s open. Yeah, I’m really hoping people write us on this one because I would really like to hear different perspective about this move. Yeah, for sure. Especially if you’re mad at my half a middle finger.

Gavin 53:20
I mean, it makes sense. I didn’t give it any middle fingers. I might give it a half middle finger is like what what is it like to have middle finger one two

B Black 53:27
fingers the worst? Yeah. Cuz, you know, usually we start hating. Okay.

Gavin 53:30
I’ll give it half a middle finger halfway. Yeah,

B Black 53:33
yeah. I mean, I’ll buy the movie. Don’t get me wrong.

Gavin 53:36
I mean, yeah, I don’t watch it again. Like, again when I after analyzing it because I came at it from my own bias. And then like we looking at it again, like, it makes a lot of sense. From a race perspective. I just don’t think it’s good. Okay, yeah. All right. All right.

Unknown Speaker 53:56
Let’s stop.


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